Griff's earlier post about the Arcane Powers got a bunch of comments from readers, including one from Francis Bousho who was talking about designing a martial controller class. This got me thinking about how his idea would fit well with one of my 3.5 characters, but then got me thinking about how tough class design is in 4e.
Back in the days of 3.5, you could think up your class's theme (or more likely, prestige class), pick an appropriate hit die and save(s), think up a couple of class abilities that likely progressed every few levels, and otherwise fill in the "balance" blanks with concepts from other classes. Just look at the 3.5 fighter: pick d10, pick Fortitude, give him a bunch of proficiencies, and then add "extra feat" every even level. Done! Even spellcasting classes or prestige classes were easy -- the spell choices were from the "arcane" or "divine" list, and you either gave a select list from which to choose (e.g. the assassin) or just say "+1 to arcane spellcaster level" and be done with it. Easy!
But now look at the 4e class. Any class. There's no shared list of powers. Anywhere. Not a single one. This means that you've got to come up with new powers for THIRTY levels. The cleric has 79 powers to choose from, not counting the actual class feature ones (like Channel Divinity) or Paragon/Epic prayers. Assuming the cleric is typical in count, that's a LOT of work. And don't forget about class-specific feats...
This got me wondering, then, about how many powers you could possibly have. Even considering the at-will powers of every class, you've only got so many variables, which I've talked about before, and this means a finite amount of different powers. We may not have hit that amount yet, but how many can there be? Push/pull/slide, knock prone, daze/stun/immobilize, ongoing effects of various kinds... you can only combine so many of these together before you run out of new ways to do so -- and then you have to start sharing powers. Myself, I don't see that as bad, but it seems that this is verboten in 4e design.
So what challenges does Bousho face? Not only NOT coming up with an attack that exists already, but also being able to balance the strength of 1[W] vs. stun vs. slide-#squares-equal-to-Ability-modifier vs. ongoing Somekindof damage, at each level, compared to the other classes. All of them. Utility powers? Easy in comparison! But it's all of the combat ones that, frankly, seem unbearably numerous to be able to tackle such a task.
Trying to imagine how I, or the Wizards developers, would go about this, I picture multiple spreadsheets, or a versatile database (the Compendium just wouldn't cut it) for finding all (level X to Y) powers (at-will or encounter) (vs. Reflex, say) that deal (X)[W] and also (stun/daze/etc.) until (end of your next turn / save ends). So if you think you want a stunning attack, you can see all of the powers that have it, what range their levels are at, how many [W] they deal -- all to figure out whereabouts your power should be (and if it's at-will, encounter or daily) and, more importantly, if it already exists.
Or maybe you *could* use the Compendium... maybe I'm thinking too much like a DM. A search for "stun" in the powers brings up a single one. "Daze" brings up two. more appropriate to the monster I'm used to running, perhaps? Okay, but what about "prone"? 191. "slide"? 178. 156 if I filter by "attack", and only 10 if I filter "at-will" out. Now we're getting somewhere. Eight of the ten are level 1 (which makes sense, since that's where most at-wills appear).
Those eight are all different, but some not by much... the Footwork Lure of the fighter and the Luring Strike of the swordmage are very close -- but different enough to be different powers. So maybe I was wrong, maybe there ARE enough variables to keep making variants of the same idea for years to come - but I wouldn't want to have to go through every existing power to make sure I haven't overlapped. Eight at-wills are one thing to look through, 76 sliding encounter powers is another. Computer please!
Of course, there's nothing saying that home-made classes can't steal existing powers, intentionally or not. It might hinder their adoption outside of your group, if posted to a forum as a proffered donation to the community (and really, I should have checked out the Wizards forums before writing this -- I'm sure there's a forum dedicated to hand-made classes), because there will always be people who are sticklers about such things like overlap. Also, not allowing overlap means that future official classes might invalidate your handmade class, if Wizards, too, realizes that an at-will power that slides the target 1 square, and deals 1[W]+Intelligence modifier damage hadn't been used yet.
I don't see myself trying to create a class any time in the future, because of all of this. A paragon path or an epic destiny, maybe, and monsters for sure, but I definitely have respect for the Wizards developers (or their software which helps them manage these things), and for any players willing to take a stab at it. Francis, if you do follow up with making your martial controller class, do send it to us!
Showing posts with label calculations. Show all posts
Showing posts with label calculations. Show all posts
Wednesday, July 29, 2009
Friday, April 18, 2008
I can count to 11 if I use my tail...
While looking at the latest few excerpts from the upcoming Monster Manual, and got thinking about a previous post I made regarding monster creation.
It has been mentioned that the creation of monster stats was going to become less algorithmic than it was in 3rd edition, which doesn't sit well with me. But looking at the sample monsters, it looks like it might not be so bad. Let's consider the succubus (sorry for you who aren't math nerds).
It's a level 9 "immortal humanoid". There are certain stats that we will always assume are calculated, such as Initiative; we're told that ability bonuses are still calculated as
ability bonus = (ability score-10)/2
but that all ability bonus calculations also add in level/2, so the succubus's Dexterity bonus is ((18-10)/2 + 9/2) = (4 + 4.5) = 8. And there's the Initiative +8, so it looks like it's calculated the same way as 3e. The same goes with Perception: no ranks listed below, so just the will bonus, also +8.
Hitpoints. This is what made me wonder if these were still being calculated. The succubus has 90hp, so that would be 10hp per level. But would the monsters progress like the player classes seem to, where on the first level, they get X plus their Constitution score, and on the other levels, they get Y plus their Constitution bonus? Or is it something simpler? Some playing with a spreadsheet can get me a few possibilities, but we'll have to try the same formula with other monsters to get an idea on which might be correct.
Armor class is 23 on the succubus. 10 is the base AC, so where's the rest from? According to dnd4.com/phb, we get our ability modifier (we'll assume with the half-level bonus), for 8 from our Dexterity, for a total of 18. Is there some natural armor in there? Do devils, or shapechangers, or immortal humanoids get a racial/type bonus to AC -- insight, infernal, etc.? Hrm.
The Fortitude save is base-10 plus 4 for the ability (either Str or Con, according to dnd4.com), and another 3 from ... somewhere. Reflex has base-10 plus 8 for ability, and another 3 from ... somewhere. Will has base-10 plus 10 for ability (higher of Charisma or Wisdom), and another 3 from ... somewhere. That "3 from somewhere" is nice and consistent; is it a racial bonus? A "type" bonus? A made-up bonus? Does this same bonus contribute 3 of the 5 points to AC that we don't know about (still leaving 2 other unaccounted, maybe natural armor, points)?
The to-hit calculations are interesting. The two melee attacks, Corrupting Touch and Charming Kiss, look like what would have been previously known as "touch attacks", though they don't seem to use the term. Before, that would mean that the target's AC would have to be modified, but perhaps the touch aspect is somehow being incorporated into the to-hit, instead? That doesn't really make sense, as the attacker would be getting that bonus against ACs based either on full armor or full Dexterity equally.
The succubus gets +14 on the two melee attacks. It's not clear whether we should use Strength or Dexterity for this -- there's no mention of a Weapon Finesse-like feat (if such a thing exists anymore), so either +4 or +8 is being contributed from the ability bonus (plus half-level bonus). Where does the other +10/+6 come from? Could this all be from weapon proficiency?
The ranged Dominate attack has +12. Something tells me that this isn't based on Dexterity, considering it's a mind-affecting ability, and that it attacks Will, so it's either going to be the succubus's Wisdom or Charisma bonus, +8 or +10. Where's the other +4/+2 coming from? It doesn't seem to be the same bonus as the unknown melee one. Different levels of proficiency?
Skills: Bluff = 10 for Charisma + 5 for, according to dnd4.com, "trained" skills. Diplomacy = 10 for Charisma + 5 trained, and Insight = 8 for Wisdom + 5 trained. Assuming I'm right that those are the succubus's trained skills, then it seems she gets no skill points. Was that mentioned somewhere - that monsters get no skill points? I remember they're not getting any feats... poor guys.
And finally, the ability scores themselves. In 3e, monsters had a starting array of three 10s and three 11s, modified by levels and class and such. If we assume the same starting array, then the succubus has +8 Dex, +8 Wis, +4 Int and +10 Cha. Some as racial gains, some as level gains? According to the chart at dnd4.com, there's racial bonuses at level one, and increases at 4 and 8. This is really arbitrary for now, but we can say that the succubus race gets +8 Dex, +8 Wis, +4 Int and +8 Cha as racial bonuses (wow!), and that the extra +2 Cha is from levelling up.
Okay, so we're about 50/50 on explaining the numbers so far. Let's look at the next monster on that page, the War Devil.
Initiative - check, it matches the Dexterity bonus. Perception - check, matches Wisdom.
Hit points. 255 doesn't divide into 22 very nicely, which means the number is either arbitrary (either to the war devil specifically, or to 22nd level monsters generally), or there's a bonus somewhere. Since the war devil is also an immortal humanoid, like the succubus, then we might assume that they have the same hit die. But no matter how I've tried to slice it, I can't come up with a formula that gives the same results for both the succubus and the war devil, discounting bonus hit points from somewhere. This might be a problem of having too few datasets, so let's leave it for now, and see if the rest of the war devil makes sense.
AC: 10-base, 17 from Dexterity... we're short by 8. Fortitude: 10-base, 18 from Constitution, or 19 from Strength - we're short by 6 or 5. Reflex is short by 5 if Dex is used, as is Will. A similar pattern to what we saw on the succubus. So where are these extra numbers coming from? They seem too low to be level-based, if they're only 5 over 22 levels for the war devil. Racial? Class based? I still suspect natural armor being the discrepancy between the AC missing bonus and the one for the saves.
To-hits on the war devil are in a similar position: the two melee attacks have the same bonus, which gives some promise to a formula in there somewhere, but how do we get to +26 from the +19 of Strength? +7 from weapon proficiency?
Skills: Intimidate +20. Looks good for +15 from Charisma and a +5 trained bonus.
And finally the ability scores. Assuming, again, a 10/10/10/11/11/11 array, we've immediately got a problem: the war devil doesn't have three even/three odd stats. Working backwards, the 22nd level war devil should have received 6 ability score increases (4,8,11,14,17,20), so we can reduce two of the extra odd ability scores down to even ones, and use the other four elsewhere. We're just guessing anyway, so let's say our bonuses are Strength +17 (14 + 3), Dexterity +13 (12 + 1), Wisdom +8, Constitution +14 (12 + 2), Intelligence +4, and Charisma +8. Why these numbers? Because even back in 3e, and as above on the succubus, bonuses tended to be in multiples of +4. The only exception is the Strength.
Okay, so some things make sense, but others are still unknown. I've made a lot of assumptions, and also used a lot of the stuff on dnd4.com (which I should really read all the way through, since they're more diligent than I am). Perhaps the standard array isn't so standard anymore. Perhaps monsters don't gain ability points at all. And yes, though I refuse to accept it, perhaps monsters are not generated in the way I want them to be. This won't stop me from trying to shoehorn them into a formula, though, and if that requires changing some monsters' stats, so be it! But damn it, if I want a Savage Species book for 4e, I'm damned well going to make one.
It has been mentioned that the creation of monster stats was going to become less algorithmic than it was in 3rd edition, which doesn't sit well with me. But looking at the sample monsters, it looks like it might not be so bad. Let's consider the succubus (sorry for you who aren't math nerds).
It's a level 9 "immortal humanoid". There are certain stats that we will always assume are calculated, such as Initiative; we're told that ability bonuses are still calculated as
ability bonus = (ability score-10)/2
but that all ability bonus calculations also add in level/2, so the succubus's Dexterity bonus is ((18-10)/2 + 9/2) = (4 + 4.5) = 8. And there's the Initiative +8, so it looks like it's calculated the same way as 3e. The same goes with Perception: no ranks listed below, so just the will bonus, also +8.
Hitpoints. This is what made me wonder if these were still being calculated. The succubus has 90hp, so that would be 10hp per level. But would the monsters progress like the player classes seem to, where on the first level, they get X plus their Constitution score, and on the other levels, they get Y plus their Constitution bonus? Or is it something simpler? Some playing with a spreadsheet can get me a few possibilities, but we'll have to try the same formula with other monsters to get an idea on which might be correct.
Armor class is 23 on the succubus. 10 is the base AC, so where's the rest from? According to dnd4.com/phb, we get our ability modifier (we'll assume with the half-level bonus), for 8 from our Dexterity, for a total of 18. Is there some natural armor in there? Do devils, or shapechangers, or immortal humanoids get a racial/type bonus to AC -- insight, infernal, etc.? Hrm.
The Fortitude save is base-10 plus 4 for the ability (either Str or Con, according to dnd4.com), and another 3 from ... somewhere. Reflex has base-10 plus 8 for ability, and another 3 from ... somewhere. Will has base-10 plus 10 for ability (higher of Charisma or Wisdom), and another 3 from ... somewhere. That "3 from somewhere" is nice and consistent; is it a racial bonus? A "type" bonus? A made-up bonus? Does this same bonus contribute 3 of the 5 points to AC that we don't know about (still leaving 2 other unaccounted, maybe natural armor, points)?
The to-hit calculations are interesting. The two melee attacks, Corrupting Touch and Charming Kiss, look like what would have been previously known as "touch attacks", though they don't seem to use the term. Before, that would mean that the target's AC would have to be modified, but perhaps the touch aspect is somehow being incorporated into the to-hit, instead? That doesn't really make sense, as the attacker would be getting that bonus against ACs based either on full armor or full Dexterity equally.
The succubus gets +14 on the two melee attacks. It's not clear whether we should use Strength or Dexterity for this -- there's no mention of a Weapon Finesse-like feat (if such a thing exists anymore), so either +4 or +8 is being contributed from the ability bonus (plus half-level bonus). Where does the other +10/+6 come from? Could this all be from weapon proficiency?
The ranged Dominate attack has +12. Something tells me that this isn't based on Dexterity, considering it's a mind-affecting ability, and that it attacks Will, so it's either going to be the succubus's Wisdom or Charisma bonus, +8 or +10. Where's the other +4/+2 coming from? It doesn't seem to be the same bonus as the unknown melee one. Different levels of proficiency?
Skills: Bluff = 10 for Charisma + 5 for, according to dnd4.com, "trained" skills. Diplomacy = 10 for Charisma + 5 trained, and Insight = 8 for Wisdom + 5 trained. Assuming I'm right that those are the succubus's trained skills, then it seems she gets no skill points. Was that mentioned somewhere - that monsters get no skill points? I remember they're not getting any feats... poor guys.
And finally, the ability scores themselves. In 3e, monsters had a starting array of three 10s and three 11s, modified by levels and class and such. If we assume the same starting array, then the succubus has +8 Dex, +8 Wis, +4 Int and +10 Cha. Some as racial gains, some as level gains? According to the chart at dnd4.com, there's racial bonuses at level one, and increases at 4 and 8. This is really arbitrary for now, but we can say that the succubus race gets +8 Dex, +8 Wis, +4 Int and +8 Cha as racial bonuses (wow!), and that the extra +2 Cha is from levelling up.
Okay, so we're about 50/50 on explaining the numbers so far. Let's look at the next monster on that page, the War Devil.
Initiative - check, it matches the Dexterity bonus. Perception - check, matches Wisdom.
Hit points. 255 doesn't divide into 22 very nicely, which means the number is either arbitrary (either to the war devil specifically, or to 22nd level monsters generally), or there's a bonus somewhere. Since the war devil is also an immortal humanoid, like the succubus, then we might assume that they have the same hit die. But no matter how I've tried to slice it, I can't come up with a formula that gives the same results for both the succubus and the war devil, discounting bonus hit points from somewhere. This might be a problem of having too few datasets, so let's leave it for now, and see if the rest of the war devil makes sense.
AC: 10-base, 17 from Dexterity... we're short by 8. Fortitude: 10-base, 18 from Constitution, or 19 from Strength - we're short by 6 or 5. Reflex is short by 5 if Dex is used, as is Will. A similar pattern to what we saw on the succubus. So where are these extra numbers coming from? They seem too low to be level-based, if they're only 5 over 22 levels for the war devil. Racial? Class based? I still suspect natural armor being the discrepancy between the AC missing bonus and the one for the saves.
To-hits on the war devil are in a similar position: the two melee attacks have the same bonus, which gives some promise to a formula in there somewhere, but how do we get to +26 from the +19 of Strength? +7 from weapon proficiency?
Skills: Intimidate +20. Looks good for +15 from Charisma and a +5 trained bonus.
And finally the ability scores. Assuming, again, a 10/10/10/11/11/11 array, we've immediately got a problem: the war devil doesn't have three even/three odd stats. Working backwards, the 22nd level war devil should have received 6 ability score increases (4,8,11,14,17,20), so we can reduce two of the extra odd ability scores down to even ones, and use the other four elsewhere. We're just guessing anyway, so let's say our bonuses are Strength +17 (14 + 3), Dexterity +13 (12 + 1), Wisdom +8, Constitution +14 (12 + 2), Intelligence +4, and Charisma +8. Why these numbers? Because even back in 3e, and as above on the succubus, bonuses tended to be in multiples of +4. The only exception is the Strength.
Okay, so some things make sense, but others are still unknown. I've made a lot of assumptions, and also used a lot of the stuff on dnd4.com (which I should really read all the way through, since they're more diligent than I am). Perhaps the standard array isn't so standard anymore. Perhaps monsters don't gain ability points at all. And yes, though I refuse to accept it, perhaps monsters are not generated in the way I want them to be. This won't stop me from trying to shoehorn them into a formula, though, and if that requires changing some monsters' stats, so be it! But damn it, if I want a Savage Species book for 4e, I'm damned well going to make one.
Friday, August 24, 2007
The way I figger it...
The latest post in Matt Sernett's blog has me bummed. He talks about the process of creating a monster using the old 3rd edition system, and then the 4th edition system, and says that even though they had a tool for 3rd edition for figuring out the CR and the like, they had to jump "through dozens of hoops" to get the monster to fit within the rules.
I liked the fact that the monsters played by the rules. Perhaps it's the rules lawyer in me, the programmer in me, the wannabe game designer in me, but I felt it "right" that a player's foes were cut from the same cloth as themselves, but that heroic providence led the player to victory over them.
While working on xmld20, and figuring out monster classes for those that weren't supplied in Savage Species, I got to know the system well, even making a list of all of the errors I found on the way, to perhaps someday send to Wizards for the next version.
Of course, that's all for naught, now, and from the sound of it, trying to reverse-engineer the monsters of 4.0 might not be possible. It makes me feel that they should just have a book of ideas, concepts for monsters and such, and just let the DM wing it during play, if there's no system to it.
I liked the fact that the monsters played by the rules. Perhaps it's the rules lawyer in me, the programmer in me, the wannabe game designer in me, but I felt it "right" that a player's foes were cut from the same cloth as themselves, but that heroic providence led the player to victory over them.
While working on xmld20, and figuring out monster classes for those that weren't supplied in Savage Species, I got to know the system well, even making a list of all of the errors I found on the way, to perhaps someday send to Wizards for the next version.
Of course, that's all for naught, now, and from the sound of it, trying to reverse-engineer the monsters of 4.0 might not be possible. It makes me feel that they should just have a book of ideas, concepts for monsters and such, and just let the DM wing it during play, if there's no system to it.
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